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TrabantDeLuxe

[very much WIP] de Glehn atlantic 221 (Cie. du Nord).

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Bonjour!

Switch to english now, as I don't want to look silly. To start, if you have input, please do respond in french. I am slowly getting better at reading it.

atlantic.thumb.jpg.5b895a9391ed2ad0fc8cf6b982436ba2.jpg

So this is a project I started a while ago, because these engines have always intrigued me in terms of complexity (they are). It's a 221 wheel arrangement Atlantic, four cylinder balanced compound system after the de Glehn style. The other major contributor to the design was G. du Bousquet. For now I am doing the version a vapeur saturee. Surchaffeurs where added to most (all?) of the engines in the 1910-1920 era. The project is still heavily in WIP status, but I hope to make some progress with it. Part of the reason for registering on these forums was to get some input from people who are far more knowledgeable about french practice than I am.

Quick introduction to what a compound is: Instead of expanding steam in 1 cylinder, then chucking it out the exhaust, we expand in 2 or more seperate cylinders. Steam is admitted into the high-pressure cylinder, passed on to a reciever (a fat pipe connecting the H.P. exhaust port to the L.P. valve chest), and finally expanded some more in a low pressure cylinder. There's a thermodynamic advantage in all this, although if you are Robert Garbe you'd probably say "don't bother, just superheat". In German.

The basics of the de Glehn compound systems are that we have 2 high pressure, and 2 low pressure cylinders. Each cylinder has its' own valve gear, and the cutoff can be indepentently adjusted between H.P. and L.P. cylinders. A starting arrangement is provided to let the H.P. cylinders exhaust directly, as well as permitting admission of live steam into the L.P. cylinders for starting. As far as compounds go, this is a fairly complex arrangement and rather demanding on the knowledge of the crew which might be the reason these never really caught on outside of France. A more detailed description of the concept can be read in this book.

 

So, in this topic I hope to keep some track of progress. Also, if it's not a problem, ask some questions on translation, and perhaps on details of the engine.

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Cefupa    21
il y a 4 minutes, TGV Lyria a dit :

C'est déjà très beau ! 

as-tu lu attentivement le message :P:P:P:P

il y a 16 minutes, TrabantDeLuxe a dit :

please do respond in french

 

 

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cerbere22    4,382

Et un peu d'indulgence également :rolleyes:

Pour en revenir au sujet, bravo Trabant c'est un joli départ ! 

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fildefer    1,478

Bonjour TrabantDeluxe.

Le système Compound est ce qui produit le meilleur rendement/puissance, mais il induit aussi des coûts de maintenance élevés. C'est pourquoi beaucoup de pays y ont renoncé (Ex: la Grande Bretagne et les U.S.A, bien que dans ce dernier cas l'infériorité de la simple admission ait été compensée par le gigantisme). Par rapport au système De Glehn de cette 221 (442 en dénomination anglo-saxonne), les travaux de A. Chapelon ont encore amélioré les caractéristiques. A titre de comparaison et pour prendre deux machines contemporaine, la 141R, simple admission, développait 2150kw à 80km/h et la 141P 2300kw à 105 km/h.

A noter aussi que, suite aux observations des mécaniciens, la distribution des cylindres Haute et Basse pression, qui sur la 221 est indépendante, fût liée pour obtenir une valeur de 30% en service.

Amicalement

Hello TrabantDeluxe.

The Compound system produces the best performance / power, but it also leads to high maintenance costs. This is why many countries have renounced it (eg Great Britain and the U.S.A, although in the latter case the inferiority of the simple admission has been compensated by gigantism). Compared with the De Glehn system of this 221 (442 in Anglo-Saxon denomination), the work of A. Chapelon further improved the characteristics. For comparison and to take two contemporary machines, the 141R, single admission, developed 2150kw at 80km / h and the 141P 2300kw at 105 km / h.

It should also be noted that, following the observations of the mechanics, the distribution of the cylinders High and Low pressure, which on the 221 is independent, was bound to obtain a value of 30% in service.

Sincerely

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cc72077    383

En français : ma locomotive préférée, en version chocolat !

Bon choix et Bonne chance !

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JORDIHP    171

Une initiative fantastique TrabantDeLuxe !!!

Un modèle historique du chemin de fer français. Et aussi une nouvelle contribution nécessaire, au parc peu abondant  du chemin de fer français classique dans le simulateur.

 A good and encouraging choice

Sincere congratulations!!!

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Merci pour les encouragements! C'est pas mon premier locomotive en development, j'ai en developpement une 220 des chemins de fer etat Neerlandais; et aussi quelques des voitures a six et huit roues.

7 hours ago, fildefer said:

Bonjour TrabantDeluxe.

Le système Compound est ce qui produit le meilleur rendement/puissance, mais il induit aussi des coûts de maintenance élevés. C'est pourquoi beaucoup de pays y ont renoncé (Ex: la Grande Bretagne et les U.S.A, bien que dans ce dernier cas l'infériorité de la simple admission ait été compensée par le gigantisme). Par rapport au système De Glehn de cette 221 (442 en dénomination anglo-saxonne), les travaux de A. Chapelon ont encore amélioré les caractéristiques. A titre de comparaison et pour prendre deux machines contemporaine, la 141R, simple admission, développait 2150kw à 80km/h et la 141P 2300kw à 105 km/h.

A noter aussi que, suite aux observations des mécaniciens, la distribution des cylindres Haute et Basse pression, qui sur la 221 est indépendante, fût liée pour obtenir une valeur de 30% en service.

Amicalement

So this quote caught my attention. I read a letter by mr. de Glehn himself to a american engineering journal during my research (we must be grateful to people scanning in old engineering magazines :) ). He defended the added complexity of the system by stating that, it had been found in daily service that:

  • Splitting the drive forces to two crank-axles instead of one greatly decreased the wear on each crank. The cost due to wear and tear was greatly reduced simply because while there are more bits and pieces, each bit has to do a lot less work. The americans got round this problem by simply making things bigger.
  • There was more fuel economy (for a simple expansion saturated locomotive a good estimate is about 25 pounds of steam per indicated horsepower per hour, whereas for compounds this number could be as low as 21). But, he states that fuel economy was not the prime objective. The option of working the engine in simple by means of the starting valve meant that when needed, a much higher power output could be achieved.
  • Nord 701 (the first compound he built) was compared to the Nord 'outrances'; and showed favourable in all aspects except for lubrication and build costs.

The relation between H.P. and B.P. cut-offs is something I've read about. It is possible to set them completely independent, but there must be some optimum. In fact; some compound systems (v. Borries did this?) actually mechanically link both valve gears so a fixed ratio is always chosen. This must be easier for training drivers, but also means the system is less flexible. And less challenging to drive :). Keep in mind also that the P.L.M. compounds like the grosse C's  (the coupe vents) did not give the driver control over the B.P. cutoff, it was always in full forwards or backwards.

Finally, if anyone goes to mulhouse by any chance, I'd love pictures of:

  • The bits under the cab floor (injectors, brake cylinders/triple valves)
  • The low pressure cylinders
  • actually, just detail pictures would greatly help. Also don't forget the tender.

Don't go out of your way to do this, but if anyone could link to them that would be of great help :).

Edited by TrabantDeLuxe

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Allo!

mwTnlXs.gif

C'est le mecanisme du distribution Walschaerts :D.

Currently working on the abri, I'll try and post a quick render later today or tomorrow, together with some (some? a lot of...) questions.

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(shameless copy-pasta from UKTS, still working on the rest of the controls but not quite done yet...). But I wanted to show the reverser mechanism (volant de changement de marche?). Sorry again for not trying this in french.

Image

So. One reverser wheel, two reach rods. How does that work? What we've got is two seperate reversers into one. The green screw moves the reverser block (and thus the reach rod) for the low pressure gear. It forms one piece with the green notched disk behind the blue handwheel. This entire assembly is hollow, and through it passed the axis of the red screw, which moves the high pressure gear. This red screw is one piece with the red notched disk on the front of the handwheel. The handwheel is mounted freely on the same axis.

Mounted on the handwheel, there is a yellow selection lever. It pivots in the rim of the handwheel, and actuates two locking pals that engage in either of the notched disks. By moving the yellow lever inward, the handwheel and the red disk are engaged and moved as one piece. This permits moving the high pressure gear seperately. By moving the selection lever in an intermediate position, the locking pals engage both green and red disks. Should we turn the handwheel now, both gears will be adjusted. Finally, if we set the selection lever to its' outermost position, the green disk is engaged but the red disk disengaged. Now we are operating the high pressure gear alone.

A locking lever is provided, and it works much like what you might be used to. However, it only engages with the green disk. I presume that to fully lock the both gears, both the locking lever must be set, and the selection lever must be set into its' middle position. An index plate is provided to indicate to the driver the cut-off selected.

 

Oh, and a translation question. The Petit Cheval, lit. 'little horse', I'm thinking thats the air pump? And a souffleur is a blower right?

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fildefer    1,478

Hello TrabantDeLuxe.

Correct for reverser=volant de changement de marche, Petit cheval=air compressor (or pump) and soufleur=Blower.

No problem for english, many of ours can understand this very well.

Best regards.

Amitiés.

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On 1-12-2017 at 9:10 PM, fildefer said:

Hello TrabantDeLuxe.

Correct for reverser=volant de changement de marche, Petit cheval=air compressor (or pump) and soufleur=Blower.

No problem for english, many of ours can understand this very well.

Best regards.

Amitiés.

Hi fildefer, good to hear, thanks. Google translate made the text I wanted to read a bit silly so I had to ask to be sure.

Meanwhile, a look into the cab. It's not been easy, as good drawings and pictures are hard to come by. My main references has been Nord 2.670 (preserved at Mulhouse), and a partial drawing I found in the Revue Generale du Chemins de Fer. It seems that (as always...) there are differences between different locomotives (perhaps the Nord changing stuff around when they added superheaters, perhaps SACM Belfort vs SFCM Cail). So I'm not sure whether this is 100% correct.

Untitled-1.thumb.jpg.ee2eba8d3721f3755a26455791db7fc2.jpg

Research Questions:

  1. The numbered gauges are: 1. Boiler Pressure, 2. Boite Vapeur B.P., 3. Westinghouse Duplex (brakes). Correct? 2.670 has an extra gauge to the left of No. 1, I think it is steam heating pressure.
  2. Where's the blower control? Usually it's easy to find, but I'm not sure where it is. I suspect it might be the handwheel to the right of No. 2.
  3. Where's the cylinder cock lever? Drawings seem to show it's on the fireman's side, which I find strange but maybe that's the way it is.
  4. Control for the Servo-Moteur, I suspect to the right of the reverser, but once again, no clear picture or drawing...
  5. An article in the American Engineer & Railroad Journal (1905) mentions a smokebox vacuum gauge. This is very cool. Would this have been present all the time (if so, where?), or would it have been present just for the occasion (of having a fancy journalist on board).
  6. Ok final question: What would be in the corners marked with a [?]. Complete lack of pictures so I thought let's ask :P.

Cheers

Untitled-1.jpg

Edited by TrabantDeLuxe

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Long time no see, hope 2018 is a good year for everyone.

Recently, I've been doing a start of textures. Although much is still unclear, I think we get there. Some details are taken from other nord engines, such as the 230.D (many more pictures available!), but I guess they are in may respects similar, so it's a good reference point :). Any references to good quality pictures is still very much appreciated :).

texturing_1.jpg

texturing_3.jpg

texturing_2.jpg

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Hi,

The project is still going on, but unfortunately, references and pictures are very hard to come by :/. I want to make a faithful representation of the engine as it would have been in about 1910. Fortunately, Nord 2.670 (SNCF 221.A.30) sits in a corner at Cité du Train in Mulhouse. By now, I've seen every picture of it on the internet. Would anyone be willing to help me in contacting the Cité du Train and ask whether staff is prepared to climb aboard and take a few pictures? I don't know if it's possible at all, but we can try. If so, please send me a PM and I'll prepare some screenshots showing where I need pictures most.

Second question - if someone knows a source for drawings of the nord 19m3 tenders, much obliged.

 

Google Translate:

Le projet est toujours en cours, mais malheureusement, les références et les images sont très difficiles à trouver: /. Je veux faire une représentation fidèle du moteur comme il aurait été vers 1910. Heureusement, Nord 2.670 (SNCF 221.A.30) se trouve dans la musee Cité du Train à Mulhouse. Maintenant, j'ai vu toutes les images du 2.670 sur l'internet :D. Quelqu'un serait-il disposé à m'aider à contacter la Cité du Train et à demander si le personnel est prêt à monter à bord et à prendre quelques photos? Je ne sais pas si c'est possible, mais on peut essayer. Si oui, s'il vous plaît envoyez-moi un PM et je vais préparer quelques captures d'écran montrant où j'ai le plus besoin de photos.

Deuxième question - si quelqu'un connaît une source pour les dessins des tenders 19m3 nord, beaucoup obligé.

Edited by TrabantDeLuxe

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Quelques nouveaux details sur la boite fumee. Un pompe a air Westinghouse 8 inch (ou comme on dit "petit cheval"), avec son graisseur et regulateur. Un levier pour commander l'echappement variable, et le soupape de securité de boite vapeur B.P.

Comme toujours, critique constructifs et des dessins/photos sont bienvenue.

Untitled-1.jpg

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cbf78    4,098

Superbe:wub: tu travaille sur quel logiciel ?

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Merci. J'utilise pour la modelisation 3ds Max, avec TexTools. Pour les textures, j'utilise Photoshop et dDo Legacy. Quelques des objets sont sculptee en Blender pour generer les normal maps tres detaillee.

 

I once finished french in high school with 8.6/10...

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cbf78    4,098
il y a 5 minutes, TrabantDeLuxe a dit :

Merci. J'utilise pour la modelisation 3ds Max, avec TexTools. Pour les textures, j'utilise Photoshop et dDo Legacy. Quelques des objets sont sculptee en Blender pour generer les normal maps tres detaillee.

 

I once finished french in high school with 8.6/10...

OK Merci :wub:

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cbf78    4,098
il y a 19 minutes, TrabantDeLuxe a dit :

Merci. J'utilise pour la modelisation 3ds Max, avec TexTools. Pour les textures, j'utilise Photoshop et dDo Legacy. Quelques des objets sont sculptee en Blender pour generer les normal maps tres detaillee.

 

I once finished french in high school with 8.6/10...

Pense tu qu'avec Autocad il est possible de modéliser ce genre de machine ?

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En bref, non. Je pense pas que l'Autocad est adapté pour modelisation des modeles pour TS. 

And I'll be happy to explain in english why I think this: The issue is that autocad is designed to generate parametric shapes - easily adaptable and very accurate. However, a video game expects triangles (polygons). Traditional packages like Blender, 3dCanvas or Max are all very good at this. One can export to triangles from some versions of autocad, but I've never seen a very efficient or 'proper' model be made that way. For generating high-poly models however, some CAD packages like Fusion360 seem promising.

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